eds, on 26 April 2013 - 12:37 PM, said:
That sounds perfect for a Milkfloat (that could use the supermarket solar powered charging stations)
Zero power cost & Zero Emissions.
Zero power cost & Zero Emissions.
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20
An Electric Car in Every Garage?
Started by E3 wise, Jun 22 2012 10:42 PM
169 replies to this topic
#82
Posted 26 April 2013 - 02:11 PM
E3 wise, on 25 April 2013 - 05:47 PM, said:
The stations goals are to integrating roughly 65% or higher from solar and wind, with the remainder to be made up from grid tied integration.
Besoeker, on 26 April 2013 - 01:15 PM, said:
Zero power cost?
http://reneweconomy....-carriage-57664
#83
Posted 26 April 2013 - 08:31 PM
eds, on 26 April 2013 - 02:11 PM, said:
Solar PV can provide the ‘horsepower’ and electric vehicles (EVs) the ‘carriage’ of persons, potentially at ZERO energy cost and ZERO emissions.
http://reneweconomy....-carriage-57664
http://reneweconomy....-carriage-57664
On a similar basis, you could say that hydro is free and nuclear is nearly free.
#84
Posted 26 April 2013 - 09:55 PM
But you pay for them once and it's done. What you pay covers design, manufacturing, installation, and commissioning. In the states, doing the installation yourself is very popular and there are Internet sites that can supply everything at wholesale prices.
After the initial cost is recovered, electricity is free from then on until something breaks. My payback is seven years and I have no maintenance.
Most family's are two car and more households. An EV can be an excellent second car for running errands when the price comes down a little more. It will take a while but I think it will happen, at least over here.
After the initial cost is recovered, electricity is free from then on until something breaks. My payback is seven years and I have no maintenance.
Most family's are two car and more households. An EV can be an excellent second car for running errands when the price comes down a little more. It will take a while but I think it will happen, at least over here.
#86
Posted 26 April 2013 - 10:17 PM
Do you pick nits for a living? 
Of course everything must be paid for, even those free charging stations at supermarkets are being paid for by the shoppers. The difference is buying power from a nuke plant never ends, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Ditto for utility scale wind and solar, you will pay forever, even after the cost has been amortized. Solar is the only source that is yours once it's paid off. It's the only source that lowers your electric bill. All others raise it. This is where I think Rifkin is right on.
Of course everything must be paid for, even those free charging stations at supermarkets are being paid for by the shoppers. The difference is buying power from a nuke plant never ends, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Ditto for utility scale wind and solar, you will pay forever, even after the cost has been amortized. Solar is the only source that is yours once it's paid off. It's the only source that lowers your electric bill. All others raise it. This is where I think Rifkin is right on.
#87
Posted 27 April 2013 - 12:28 AM
Lets talk cost of fueling for a minute in England today. The average cost of Petrol converted to Us Dollars is averaging around $10.00 per gallon. Now like some retailers here in the US, several British groceries sell petrol, these include Morrison's, ASDA, Tesco, and Sainsbury's. with me so far, now the average cost in US dollars for a 1 hour quick charge $2.75. So if a car averages 25 miles per gallon, compare $40.00 petrol to $2.75 electric to go 100 miles. This is one big driver. Likewise it keeps customers in stores longer and since they are saving a fortune in fuel cost, maybe they will spend more.
Next people always seem to forget that gasoline transfers money from the country wher it is bought to the country where it is produced, meaning billions in pounds from England to Saudia Arabia or where ever. Look it may cost to install the charging stations and equipment, but that pales in comparison to the money lost to foreign countries.
Energy Independace creates local jobs, keeps money and tax revenue in the country, thereby increasing GDP and competitive advantage, basic economics, so don't try and tell me that cost makes alternative energy undesirable when the truth is Alternative energy generates local revenue, taxes and meets their emission standards.
So far your arguments sound child like and foolish, it cost money, well so does the transfer of wealth, so England is spending a little to keep a lot of money in country generating jobs locally.
Next people always seem to forget that gasoline transfers money from the country wher it is bought to the country where it is produced, meaning billions in pounds from England to Saudia Arabia or where ever. Look it may cost to install the charging stations and equipment, but that pales in comparison to the money lost to foreign countries.
Energy Independace creates local jobs, keeps money and tax revenue in the country, thereby increasing GDP and competitive advantage, basic economics, so don't try and tell me that cost makes alternative energy undesirable when the truth is Alternative energy generates local revenue, taxes and meets their emission standards.
So far your arguments sound child like and foolish, it cost money, well so does the transfer of wealth, so England is spending a little to keep a lot of money in country generating jobs locally.
#88
Posted 27 April 2013 - 06:02 AM
Phil, on 26 April 2013 - 10:17 PM, said:
Do you pick nits for a living? Of course everything must be paid for, even those free charging stations at supermarkets are being paid for by the shoppers. The difference is buying power from a nuke plant never ends, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Ditto for utility scale wind and solar, you will pay forever, even after the cost has been amortized. Solar is the only source that is yours once it's paid off. It's the only source that lowers your electric bill. All others raise it. This is where I think Rifkin is right on.
Of course everything must be paid for, even those free charging stations at supermarkets are being paid for by the shoppers. The difference is buying power from a nuke plant never ends, there is no light at the end of the tunnel. Ditto for utility scale wind and solar, you will pay forever, even after the cost has been amortized. Solar is the only source that is yours once it's paid off. It's the only source that lowers your electric bill. All others raise it. This is where I think Rifkin is right on.#89
Posted 27 April 2013 - 08:16 AM
E3 wise, on 27 April 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:
Lets talk cost of fueling for a minute in England today. The average cost of Petrol converted to Us Dollars is averaging around $10.00 per gallon. Now like some retailers here in the US, several British groceries sell petrol, these include Morrison's, ASDA, Tesco, and Sainsbury's. with me so far, now the average cost in US dollars for a 1 hour quick charge $2.75. So if a car averages 25 miles per gallon, compare $40.00 petrol to $2.75 electric to go 100 miles. This is one big driver. Likewise it keeps customers in stores longer and since they are saving a fortune in fuel cost, maybe they will spend more.
E3 wise, on 27 April 2013 - 12:28 AM, said:
So far your arguments sound child like and foolish, it cost money, well so does the transfer of wealth, so England is spending a little to keep a lot of money in country generating jobs locally.
I also understand that Britain imports gas, and electricity. Of course it would be better to source that locally, provide jobs, and end UK dependence on foreign sources from countries that aren't in the most stable region.
But the cost of installing solar isn't quite the one-shot deal that Phil has suggested.
One of my colleagues installed solar panels at a cost of £15k.
Had he stuck that in an investment that yielded even a moderate return he'd get maybe £750 a year.
That doesn't thus costs him £750 a year.
So what does he save?
In UK, average annual electrical energy consumption per household is 4,700 kWh.
Source is BWEA, the British Wind Energy Association - they use it as a measure of how many homes can be supplied by a wind turbine/farm.
For 2013, my electrical energy costs £0.24 for the first 900kWh and £0.12 above that.
For an average household that would amount to £672. At that rate it would never pay back. Even if it supplied all of his electrical energy. Which it doesn't. Add a home EV charger....
And storage which in many cases is VRLA batteries. Typically they have a ten year life based on most of the inverter systems I've dealt with.
OK. It's just an example. But I know a few people who have paid upwards of £10k.
It's easy to take the simplistic view. I try to dig a bit deeper.
#90
Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:26 AM
Besoeker, on 27 April 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:
One of my colleagues installed solar panels at a cost of £15k
Besoeker, on 27 April 2013 - 08:16 AM, said:
You don't have to try to convince me of the cost per mile argument. I understand that perfectly well. And have not in any way disputed it.
. . . But the "Return On Investment" is over the next 25 to 30 years of no fuel or no maintenance, and
. . . Powering the Home can also be part of that "Return On Investment."
#91
Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:31 AM
You are so right! Micro wind is workable, but only where there is wind. Micro hydro is even better, but only if you have an appropriate water source. Solar is the one solution that most anyone can take advantage of, even in Alaska.
I do have a winter stream but it's more like a winter trickle, not even enough to float a toy boat down. We also get occasional horrendous wind, 60mph and up, that uproots trees. But that's only a couple of days a year, otherwise it's mostly dead calm. On the other hand, I get enough sun to supply 85% of my electricity with 10KW of solar, (8KW out of the inverter), and now that I've converted to all cfl and LED lighting that number will increase.
If I did have an appropriate water source or wind source I would definitely take advantage of that. The key is return on investment, if whatever you do pays for itself in a reasonable time, jump on it!
I do have a winter stream but it's more like a winter trickle, not even enough to float a toy boat down. We also get occasional horrendous wind, 60mph and up, that uproots trees. But that's only a couple of days a year, otherwise it's mostly dead calm. On the other hand, I get enough sun to supply 85% of my electricity with 10KW of solar, (8KW out of the inverter), and now that I've converted to all cfl and LED lighting that number will increase.
If I did have an appropriate water source or wind source I would definitely take advantage of that. The key is return on investment, if whatever you do pays for itself in a reasonable time, jump on it!
#92
Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:33 AM
Now I would ask you to answer me an additional question, what is the value of self reliance. I will not be so presumptuous to lecture a Brit on the need for staying the course during dark and turbulent times like WW2. Is it really all just about payoff, what do I get out of it. Does not the ability to pass on a more secure and self sufficiency country or world to our future generations.
I am different in that I provide designs that factor in costs and payoff times, produce other product beside just energy, like water, or O2, or hydrogen, sea salt, or any other marketable bi product to not only provide payoff but help people or companies to reduce waste by making alternative energy poly generative. That's what I do for my customers.
Yet for myself and my family I tend to be more altruistic. When we place solar on our home 13 years ago, I did not size the system to just provide our basic needs. I over sized the system by 30% for future needs and to be able to provide more for others. We received no incentives, no grants, no low interest loans. The price was much higher then today and although I grumbled to my wife a little, she knew the real reason I was installing solar was that I wanted to do something to slow climate change, reduce consumption, and most of all provide an example that going green did not mean living in the dark in a cave. We installed a cistern, to catch rain water, a filter system with UV light to kill micro organisms, we also planted a green garden where pesticides and man made fertilizers are never used, we bought a large compost tumbler to provide all the compost we ever need. Now does all this change the world, no just my little piece of it, but when hurricane Wilma left South Florida with no power for two weeks, my neighbors did notice.
We moved our freezer in front of our garage and gave away ice to anyone needing it, our water was safe and clean and everyone was welcome to whatever they needed, we placed extra cords outside so people could power cell phones, lap tops and so on. We gave vegetables away by the baskets of tomatoes, green beans, peas, okra, corn and so on. We even let people come and cook meals or use our grill so they and there children could have hot meals, or cold milk or juice.
I never asked for or accepted any money even though many tried to pay. We opened our home to everyone to come in cool off sit and watch the latest news or have a cup of tea or coffee. I did not do all that for money or ego, I did it to help my neighbors make it hrough a difficult time.
Later a few others began putting solar on their homes also, no many but a few, as prices have dropped others have done the same. Many come and ask our advise, which is always free, have I changed the world, no just my little part of it. We live locally and think globally.
So beyond energy costs, what is clean air and water worth, or security and peace of mind. Terrorist may some day take down the grid, but they cannot stop the sun shining, in two or three years I will be fueling my car from home, we have only one, but low and behold wil be able to fuel up to five a week from our rooftop solar. I won't be going into the fueling business, but I will then have enough energy to power our home for 12 days of back up should the need arise.
My goal has never been to get rich or be famous, my goal is to help people. Nothing is perfect, everything has trade offs, but in a world of energy, water and economic instability becomes even more chaotic, I can not just tell people, but show them a different way, a way that is becoming cheaper everyday, that is moving forward toward sharing our planet, not using it up.
It's the same here on this forum, many will tell you all the imperfections, that easy, what we do is much harder, like the old proverb, we are not giving everyone a fish, we are teaching them how to fish so they can stand on their own feet and know the satisfaction of making their piece of the world a little better, and as more do so collectively we are changing the world.
I am different in that I provide designs that factor in costs and payoff times, produce other product beside just energy, like water, or O2, or hydrogen, sea salt, or any other marketable bi product to not only provide payoff but help people or companies to reduce waste by making alternative energy poly generative. That's what I do for my customers.
Yet for myself and my family I tend to be more altruistic. When we place solar on our home 13 years ago, I did not size the system to just provide our basic needs. I over sized the system by 30% for future needs and to be able to provide more for others. We received no incentives, no grants, no low interest loans. The price was much higher then today and although I grumbled to my wife a little, she knew the real reason I was installing solar was that I wanted to do something to slow climate change, reduce consumption, and most of all provide an example that going green did not mean living in the dark in a cave. We installed a cistern, to catch rain water, a filter system with UV light to kill micro organisms, we also planted a green garden where pesticides and man made fertilizers are never used, we bought a large compost tumbler to provide all the compost we ever need. Now does all this change the world, no just my little piece of it, but when hurricane Wilma left South Florida with no power for two weeks, my neighbors did notice.
We moved our freezer in front of our garage and gave away ice to anyone needing it, our water was safe and clean and everyone was welcome to whatever they needed, we placed extra cords outside so people could power cell phones, lap tops and so on. We gave vegetables away by the baskets of tomatoes, green beans, peas, okra, corn and so on. We even let people come and cook meals or use our grill so they and there children could have hot meals, or cold milk or juice.
I never asked for or accepted any money even though many tried to pay. We opened our home to everyone to come in cool off sit and watch the latest news or have a cup of tea or coffee. I did not do all that for money or ego, I did it to help my neighbors make it hrough a difficult time.
Later a few others began putting solar on their homes also, no many but a few, as prices have dropped others have done the same. Many come and ask our advise, which is always free, have I changed the world, no just my little part of it. We live locally and think globally.
So beyond energy costs, what is clean air and water worth, or security and peace of mind. Terrorist may some day take down the grid, but they cannot stop the sun shining, in two or three years I will be fueling my car from home, we have only one, but low and behold wil be able to fuel up to five a week from our rooftop solar. I won't be going into the fueling business, but I will then have enough energy to power our home for 12 days of back up should the need arise.
My goal has never been to get rich or be famous, my goal is to help people. Nothing is perfect, everything has trade offs, but in a world of energy, water and economic instability becomes even more chaotic, I can not just tell people, but show them a different way, a way that is becoming cheaper everyday, that is moving forward toward sharing our planet, not using it up.
It's the same here on this forum, many will tell you all the imperfections, that easy, what we do is much harder, like the old proverb, we are not giving everyone a fish, we are teaching them how to fish so they can stand on their own feet and know the satisfaction of making their piece of the world a little better, and as more do so collectively we are changing the world.
#93
Posted 27 April 2013 - 09:47 AM
Getting a 5% return is not possible excepting the stock market with todays low interest rates, solar is a safe investment, little to no risk. Smart investors have a range of investments.
I think the power draw in the states is somewhat higher, perhaps double. My house uses about 12,500 KWH/yr and I don't have electric heat or air conditioning.
When I first installed my panels a couple of years ago the total cost was $1.58/W, if I were to buy the same system today it would be $1.07/W. How much was your friends system/W? (Total cost including everything from the permits to the last mounting bolt.)
Britain and the US are certainly not interchangeable, even our own states are not interchangeable, so what is right for us may not be right for you, and visa versa.
If Jeff can get a home fueling station and FCV in a couple of years I'm all over that too! My WAF would go through the roof! (Wife acceptance factor)
I think the power draw in the states is somewhat higher, perhaps double. My house uses about 12,500 KWH/yr and I don't have electric heat or air conditioning.
When I first installed my panels a couple of years ago the total cost was $1.58/W, if I were to buy the same system today it would be $1.07/W. How much was your friends system/W? (Total cost including everything from the permits to the last mounting bolt.)
Britain and the US are certainly not interchangeable, even our own states are not interchangeable, so what is right for us may not be right for you, and visa versa.
If Jeff can get a home fueling station and FCV in a couple of years I'm all over that too! My WAF would go through the roof! (Wife acceptance factor)
#95
Posted 27 April 2013 - 10:46 AM
Actually newer alternating current solar panels produce. Up tp 30% of total on a. Cloudy day, but guys the best set up is a hybrid solar/micro wind setup, if you have winds over 8 mph for 235 days out of year. Several of our designs in Texas and California are hybrids that use both solar and wind, here in South Florida very little wind.
#99
Posted 28 April 2013 - 06:14 AM
What if you had to borrow to buy a Home, or Vehicle or Solar or Stocks or any type of Asset?
. . . The intrest would eat into your profit.
. . . but what is the alternative, Rent, Public Transportation, Fossil Fuel and it's generated Electricity, etc.
Step back for a moment, and think about the disruption, caused by the price of Fuel suddenly going up, in the past.
. . . look at the countries that control the source of that Fuel, buying large Solar Farms,
. . . look at the countries that don't control the source of that Fuel, and the economic disruption caused
. . . . . . by 600 million people suddenly blacked out, without electricity,
. . . look at the Pollution caused by that Fuel.
Now, you personally can step back and say, there is nothing I can do about it, it's too expensive to conserve energy,
. . . it's too expensive to insulate homes, it's too expensive to convert tools off of petrol.
But I personally have replaced light bulbs, installed power strips, replaced single pane windows with double pane windows,
. . . insulated rim joints, found and fixed air leaks, replaced gasoline yard tools with electric ones, watched the price of solar
. . . components drop around 80% and am planning to get some.
I may pay more for my solar than someone who waits a few years, but I think that it will be paying for itself, and
. . . I intend to start with a small system that can be added on to, rather than buy a large system.
. . . The intrest would eat into your profit.
. . . but what is the alternative, Rent, Public Transportation, Fossil Fuel and it's generated Electricity, etc.
Step back for a moment, and think about the disruption, caused by the price of Fuel suddenly going up, in the past.
. . . look at the countries that control the source of that Fuel, buying large Solar Farms,
. . . look at the countries that don't control the source of that Fuel, and the economic disruption caused
. . . . . . by 600 million people suddenly blacked out, without electricity,
. . . look at the Pollution caused by that Fuel.
Now, you personally can step back and say, there is nothing I can do about it, it's too expensive to conserve energy,
. . . it's too expensive to insulate homes, it's too expensive to convert tools off of petrol.
But I personally have replaced light bulbs, installed power strips, replaced single pane windows with double pane windows,
. . . insulated rim joints, found and fixed air leaks, replaced gasoline yard tools with electric ones, watched the price of solar
. . . components drop around 80% and am planning to get some.
I may pay more for my solar than someone who waits a few years, but I think that it will be paying for itself, and
. . . I intend to start with a small system that can be added on to, rather than buy a large system.
#100
Posted 28 April 2013 - 07:52 AM
eds, on 28 April 2013 - 06:14 AM, said:
What if you had to borrow to buy a Home, or Vehicle or Solar or Stocks or any type of Asset?
. . . The intrest would eat into your profit.
. . . The intrest would eat into your profit.
What if the interest exceeds the profit?
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